Jim Traber Forum: Some Welcome Signs of Life From Private Sector

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Annie
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Joined: 02 May 2005
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Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:36pm

Originally posted by dockbumper5

The price was less than $3 billion. Alot of money, but not even close to the billions given to GM and Chrysler. And one can argue CFC did much more to help the auto industry than the govt "loans"......I will bet you those workers called back to work would disagree on CFC.......Look Annie, you found a quote, tied into the CFC program as if CFC didn't actually help unemployment numbers. As I pointed out, that was not true. 1350 GM workers back at work is not a pittance at all. If I only look at the postives of the program, at least we have you on the board to only look at the negatives......

A lot of money for a momentary blip that hurt more people and businesses that it helped. I was against the loans as well. The winners there -- the unions. The loosers: white collar workers, management, stock holders, equity holders.

As to asking the auto workers called back. They only care about themselves. I remember when I was working with the automotives. Flint was adding models to be built and needed to either put on a third shift or give overtime. The union voted for overtime.

The problem with the CFC is that it did not last and once the inventory was caught up, the extra workers were not needed.

The automotives have been poorly handled. First of all, the determination on how to handle them was taken out of the bankruptcy courts and into the hands of people that know nothing about manufacturing much less the American auto business. Like with the banks, no one learned anything. They will commit the same sins again. I was always against the TARP plan. I think the short term hurt would have been more severe but we would have been far better off.

“If you don’t know where you are going, any road will get you there.”
― Lewis Carroll

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chicagoillini
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Joined: 04 January 2006
Location: Iceland
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Posts: 13021

Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:41pm

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by chicagoillini

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by chicagoillini

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by boomerjake

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by boomerjake

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by boomerjake

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by boomerjake

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by Annie

Tax payers subsidized those who opted to get cars at an exorbitant price. True, people did go to the show rooms. True, car manufacturers did cut their inventory. Unfortunately, the stream of customers tailed off after the program closed. The government had a horrid design for information flow and underestimated the number of people needed to process the claims. What did they do? The dealers have to front the money and wait far too long to get their money.

You can nit pick all you want, CFC certainly had it's problems but it worked. It brought tight fisted consumers into car dealers and they spent money. Sorry Annie, it worked.

It only took future sales and transferred them to the present, and inefficiently at that. There has been several studies to substantiate that.

Stimulus is designed to make consumers NOW....Like you stated, it did just that.

No stimulus is designed to stimulate the economy with the goal of long-term growth. This only took the potential for future growth and applied it to the present. And again, at a very inefficient and costly price. Some seem to fall for any gimmick that comes along.

Fiscal stimulus in a recession has no long term goal. It is very much designed to make consumers spend money immediately.

That’s the problem Keynesian economics. Treat the symptoms and not the cause.

Looks like you don't understand Keynes.....

Please explain how this treats the cause?

I said nothing about treating the cause, you did. Here is what I know about Keynes and some of his views. He believed the health of an economy will rise and fall. In the good times, govts should save money. In the bad times, govts should use fiscal stimulus with the money they saved during the good times........Tell me what you know about Keynes and his ideas on "treating the cause" as you put it???

He cheated on his wife several times....at least once with another man.

And you have the gall to berate others that are fans of Tiger Woods GOLF GAME (not his personal exploits).

Wow, looks like you are still upset about Tiger. It will sure get ugly when your boy Pujols is outed as a PED user....

You asked what I knew about Keynes and I told you. To use your words, "sorry you don't like the truth". It appears you like generalization/lumping with no proof (see Pujols).

No, I did not ask you, I asked jake. But I don't mind you answering the question........And you are still standing up for your boy Pujols?? Does he look like the typical Dominican? Or does his body type remind you or Sosa, MGwire, Bonds, etc?? Proof has a way of coming out, Pujols will be cleared/outed soon enough......

Does Yao Ming look like the Typical Chinaman? That is your proof? Man, Shirlock Holmes and Perry Mason don't hold a candle to you. You arent doing anything different than you claim Jake did to you. Yet another example of Dock's hypocritical nature.

MEGA DITTOS!!!!!!!

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dockbumper5
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Joined: 06 January 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2592

Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:47pm

Originally posted by Annie

A lot of money for a momentary blip that hurt more people and businesses that it helped. I was against the loans as well. The winners there -- the unions. The loosers: white collar workers, management, stock holders, equity holders.

As to asking the auto workers called back. They only care about themselves. I remember when I was working with the automotives. Flint was adding models to be built and needed to either put on a third shift or give overtime. The union voted for overtime.

The problem with the CFC is that it did not last and once the inventory was caught up, the extra workers were not needed.

The automotives have been poorly handled. First of all, the determination on how to handle them was taken out of the bankruptcy courts and into the hands of people that know nothing about manufacturing much less the American auto business. Like with the banks, no one learned anything. They will commit the same sins again. I was always against the TARP plan. I think the short term hurt would have been more severe but we would have been far better off.

How do you know for sure more businesses were hurt than helped? How can one calculate that accurately? Are you saying the 1350 workers GM called back to work due to CFC have now been laid off again??

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dockbumper5
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Joined: 06 January 2010
Location: United States
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Posts: 2592

Posted: 29 July 2010 at 10:51am

Originally posted by chicagoillini

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by chicagoillini

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by chicagoillini

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by boomerjake

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by boomerjake

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by boomerjake

Originally posted by dockbumper5

Originally posted by boomerjake

Originally posted by dockbumper5

It only took future sales and transferred them to the present, and inefficiently at that. There has been several studies to substantiate that.

Stimulus is designed to make consumers NOW....Like you stated, it did just that.

Fiscal stimulus in a recession has no long term goal. It is very much designed to make consumers spend money immediately.

That’s the problem Keynesian economics. Treat the symptoms and not the cause.

Looks like you don't understand Keynes.....

Please explain how this treats the cause?

He cheated on his wife several times....at least once with another man.

And you have the gall to berate others that are fans of Tiger Woods GOLF GAME (not his personal exploits).

Wow, looks like you are still upset about Tiger. It will sure get ugly when your boy Pujols is outed as a PED user....

You asked what I knew about Keynes and I told you. To use your words, "sorry you don't like the truth". It appears you like generalization/lumping with no proof (see Pujols).

Yao Ming looks much like his mother and father. His mom was well over 6 feet tall and a star on the China women's team........I guess if Pujols's mother looks like a roided up Rosie O' Donnell and belted 500 homers for the Domincan softball team you have a point....

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dockbumper5
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Joined: 06 January 2010
Location: United States
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Posts: 2592

Posted: 30 July 2010 at 9:15am

More good news......some 55,000 autoworkers have been hired this year.(although some believed cash for clunkers would cause sales to nosedive when cfc ended. Obviously, that has not happened)...Also, President Obama said Thursday that the 60 billion bailout his adm has given GM and Chrysler will be re-paid in full. GM is now considering an IPO, and plans to payback their govt bailout with part of the proceeds..........IMO, this is great news.

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PLOWBOY
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Joined: 20 April 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6946

Posted: 30 July 2010 at 9:37am

By the way, the bailout was to save the unions. Bankruptcy would have been a better option, then the car companies could have re-organized. That's the way other businesses and individuals have to do it.

If I'm getting up at 4:00, it better be deer season.

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dockbumper5
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Joined: 06 January 2010
Location: United States
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Posted: 30 July 2010 at 9:39am

Originally posted by PLOWBOY

By the way, the bailout was to save the unions. Bankruptcy would have been a better option, then the car companies could have re-organized. That's the way other businesses and individuals have to do it.

You might be correct, but both Bush and Obama disagreed with you.....

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dockbumper5
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Joined: 06 January 2010
Location: United States
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Posts: 2592

Posted: 04 August 2010 at 8:21am

More info.......Road construction spurred by federal stimulus money has helped pickup sales according to Kolinski Morris, Ford Motor Co's senior U.S. economist........Too bad Obama's stimulus plan did not focus on shovel ready projects such as this. It contained too much waste/delayed projects/political paybacks to support.......

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Topic: Some Welcome Signs of Life From Private Sector
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Annie Ultimate Joined: 02 May 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 17583	Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:36pm
	*Originally posted by dockbumper5* The price was less than $3 billion. Alot of money, but not even close to the billions given to GM and Chrysler. And one can argue CFC did much more to help the auto industry than the govt "loans"......I will bet you those workers called back to work would disagree on CFC.......Look Annie, you found a quote, tied into the CFC program as if CFC didn't actually help unemployment numbers. As I pointed out, that was not true. 1350 GM workers back at work is not a pittance at all. If I only look at the postives of the program, at least we have you on the board to only look at the negatives...... A lot of money for a momentary blip that hurt more people and businesses that it helped. I was against the loans as well. The winners there -- the unions. The loosers: white collar workers, management, stock holders, equity holders. As to asking the auto workers called back. They only care about themselves. I remember when I was working with the automotives. Flint was adding models to be built and needed to either put on a third shift or give overtime. The union voted for overtime. The problem with the CFC is that it did not last and once the inventory was caught up, the extra workers were not needed. The automotives have been poorly handled. First of all, the determination on how to handle them was taken out of the bankruptcy courts and into the hands of people that know nothing about manufacturing much less the American auto business. Like with the banks, no one learned anything. They will commit the same sins again. I was always against the TARP plan. I think the short term hurt would have been more severe but we would have been far better off.
	“If you don’t know where you are going, any road will get you there.” ― Lewis Carroll
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chicagoillini Ultimate Joined: 04 January 2006 Location: Iceland Online Status: Offline Posts: 13021	Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:41pm
	*Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by chicagoillini* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by chicagoillini* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by boomerjake* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by boomerjake* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by boomerjake* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by boomerjake* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by Annie* Tax payers subsidized those who opted to get cars at an exorbitant price. True, people did go to the show rooms. True, car manufacturers did cut their inventory. Unfortunately, the stream of customers tailed off after the program closed. The government had a horrid design for information flow and underestimated the number of people needed to process the claims. What did they do? The dealers have to front the money and wait far too long to get their money. You can nit pick all you want, CFC certainly had it's problems but it worked. It brought tight fisted consumers into car dealers and they spent money. Sorry Annie, it worked. It only took future sales and transferred them to the present, and inefficiently at that. There has been several studies to substantiate that. Stimulus is designed to make consumers NOW....Like you stated, it did just that. No stimulus is designed to stimulate the economy with the goal of long-term growth. This only took the potential for future growth and applied it to the present. And again, at a very inefficient and costly price. Some seem to fall for any gimmick that comes along. Fiscal stimulus in a recession has no long term goal. It is very much designed to make consumers spend money immediately. That’s the problem Keynesian economics. Treat the symptoms and not the cause. Looks like you don't understand Keynes..... Please explain how this treats the cause? I said nothing about treating the cause, you did. Here is what I know about Keynes and some of his views. He believed the health of an economy will rise and fall. In the good times, govts should save money. In the bad times, govts should use fiscal stimulus with the money they saved during the good times........Tell me what you know about Keynes and his ideas on "treating the cause" as you put it??? He cheated on his wife several times....at least once with another man. And you have the gall to berate others that are fans of Tiger Woods GOLF GAME (not his personal exploits). Wow, looks like you are still upset about Tiger. It will sure get ugly when your boy Pujols is outed as a PED user.... You asked what I knew about Keynes and I told you. To use your words, "sorry you don't like the truth". It appears you like generalization/lumping with no proof (see Pujols). No, I did not ask you, I asked jake. But I don't mind you answering the question........And you are still standing up for your boy Pujols?? Does he look like the typical Dominican? Or does his body type remind you or Sosa, MGwire, Bonds, etc?? Proof has a way of coming out, Pujols will be cleared/outed soon enough...... Does Yao Ming look like the Typical Chinaman? That is your proof? Man, Shirlock Holmes and Perry Mason don't hold a candle to you. You arent doing anything different than you claim Jake did to you. Yet another example of Dock's hypocritical nature.
	MEGA DITTOS!!!!!!!
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dockbumper5 Big Daddy Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592	Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:47pm
	*Originally posted by Annie* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* The price was less than $3 billion. Alot of money, but not even close to the billions given to GM and Chrysler. And one can argue CFC did much more to help the auto industry than the govt "loans"......I will bet you those workers called back to work would disagree on CFC.......Look Annie, you found a quote, tied into the CFC program as if CFC didn't actually help unemployment numbers. As I pointed out, that was not true. 1350 GM workers back at work is not a pittance at all. If I only look at the postives of the program, at least we have you on the board to only look at the negatives...... A lot of money for a momentary blip that hurt more people and businesses that it helped. I was against the loans as well. The winners there -- the unions. The loosers: white collar workers, management, stock holders, equity holders. As to asking the auto workers called back. They only care about themselves. I remember when I was working with the automotives. Flint was adding models to be built and needed to either put on a third shift or give overtime. The union voted for overtime. The problem with the CFC is that it did not last and once the inventory was caught up, the extra workers were not needed. The automotives have been poorly handled. First of all, the determination on how to handle them was taken out of the bankruptcy courts and into the hands of people that know nothing about manufacturing much less the American auto business. Like with the banks, no one learned anything. They will commit the same sins again. I was always against the TARP plan. I think the short term hurt would have been more severe but we would have been far better off. How do you know for sure more businesses were hurt than helped? How can one calculate that accurately? Are you saying the 1350 workers GM called back to work due to CFC have now been laid off again??
	IP Logged

dockbumper5 Big Daddy Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592	Posted: 29 July 2010 at 10:51am
	*Originally posted by chicagoillini* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by chicagoillini* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by chicagoillini* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by boomerjake* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by boomerjake* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by boomerjake* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by boomerjake* *Originally posted by dockbumper5* *Originally posted by Annie* Tax payers subsidized those who opted to get cars at an exorbitant price. True, people did go to the show rooms. True, car manufacturers did cut their inventory. Unfortunately, the stream of customers tailed off after the program closed. The government had a horrid design for information flow and underestimated the number of people needed to process the claims. What did they do? The dealers have to front the money and wait far too long to get their money. You can nit pick all you want, CFC certainly had it's problems but it worked. It brought tight fisted consumers into car dealers and they spent money. Sorry Annie, it worked. It only took future sales and transferred them to the present, and inefficiently at that. There has been several studies to substantiate that. Stimulus is designed to make consumers NOW....Like you stated, it did just that. No stimulus is designed to stimulate the economy with the goal of long-term growth. This only took the potential for future growth and applied it to the present. And again, at a very inefficient and costly price. Some seem to fall for any gimmick that comes along. Fiscal stimulus in a recession has no long term goal. It is very much designed to make consumers spend money immediately. That’s the problem Keynesian economics. Treat the symptoms and not the cause. Looks like you don't understand Keynes..... Please explain how this treats the cause? I said nothing about treating the cause, you did. Here is what I know about Keynes and some of his views. He believed the health of an economy will rise and fall. In the good times, govts should save money. In the bad times, govts should use fiscal stimulus with the money they saved during the good times........Tell me what you know about Keynes and his ideas on "treating the cause" as you put it??? He cheated on his wife several times....at least once with another man. And you have the gall to berate others that are fans of Tiger Woods GOLF GAME (not his personal exploits). Wow, looks like you are still upset about Tiger. It will sure get ugly when your boy Pujols is outed as a PED user.... You asked what I knew about Keynes and I told you. To use your words, "sorry you don't like the truth". It appears you like generalization/lumping with no proof (see Pujols). No, I did not ask you, I asked jake. But I don't mind you answering the question........And you are still standing up for your boy Pujols?? Does he look like the typical Dominican? Or does his body type remind you or Sosa, MGwire, Bonds, etc?? Proof has a way of coming out, Pujols will be cleared/outed soon enough...... Does Yao Ming look like the Typical Chinaman? That is your proof? Man, Shirlock Holmes and Perry Mason don't hold a candle to you. You arent doing anything different than you claim Jake did to you. Yet another example of Dock's hypocritical nature. Yao Ming looks much like his mother and father. His mom was well over 6 feet tall and a star on the China women's team........I guess if Pujols's mother looks like a roided up Rosie O' Donnell and belted 500 homers for the Domincan softball team you have a point....
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dockbumper5 Big Daddy Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592	Posted: 30 July 2010 at 9:15am
	More good news......some 55,000 autoworkers have been hired this year.(although some believed cash for clunkers would cause sales to nosedive when cfc ended. Obviously, that has not happened)...Also, President Obama said Thursday that the 60 billion bailout his adm has given GM and Chrysler will be re-paid in full. GM is now considering an IPO, and plans to payback their govt bailout with part of the proceeds..........IMO, this is great news.
	IP Logged

PLOWBOY Big League Joined: 20 April 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6946	Posted: 30 July 2010 at 9:37am
	By the way, the bailout was to save the unions. Bankruptcy would have been a better option, then the car companies could have re-organized. That's the way other businesses and individuals have to do it.
	If I'm getting up at 4:00, it better be deer season.
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dockbumper5 Big Daddy Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592	Posted: 30 July 2010 at 9:39am
	*Originally posted by PLOWBOY* By the way, the bailout was to save the unions. Bankruptcy would have been a better option, then the car companies could have re-organized. That's the way other businesses and individuals have to do it. You might be correct, but both Bush and Obama disagreed with you.....
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dockbumper5 Big Daddy Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592	Posted: 04 August 2010 at 8:21am
	More info.......Road construction spurred by federal stimulus money has helped pickup sales according to Kolinski Morris, Ford Motor Co's senior U.S. economist........Too bad Obama's stimulus plan did not focus on shovel ready projects such as this. It contained too much waste/delayed projects/political paybacks to support.......
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