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Annie
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Joined: 02 May 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 17583 |
   Posted: 26 July 2010 at 3:37pm |
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"And the purpose of stimulus is, first and foremost, to mitigate unemployment." Paul Krugman (a Keynesian economist) One shot, short term programs like cash for clunkers do nothing toward this goal. And, if one thinks of the stimulus as priming the pump............... Cash for clunkers is an example of a major failure. The pump was not successfully primed. |
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“If you don’t know where you are going, any road will get you there.”
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy 
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 3:44pm |
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Originally posted by boomerjake Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake ???Again, I don't know what you are attempting to do or say......You state Keynes doesn't attempt to treat the cause. I never said he did......that was you who said it.......I then ask you on your ideas of Keynes treating the cause, and you offer up this post(that really didn't answer anything)..........You ask what is the point in boosting short term sales? It is pretty simple(if you knew anything about Keynes), the health of the economy will rise and fall. Boosting short term spending by the consumer, will/might lead us to another rise in the economy. Pretty simple.
Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake I said nothing about treating the cause, you did. Here is what I know about Keynes and some of his views. He believed the health of an economy will rise and fall. In the good times, govts should save money. In the bad times, govts should use fiscal stimulus with the money they saved during the good times........Tell me what you know about Keynes and his ideas on "treating the cause" as you put it???Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake Looks like you don't understand Keynes.....Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake Fiscal stimulus in a recession has no long term goal. It is very much designed to make consumers spend money immediately.Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by Annie Stimulus is designed to make consumers NOW....Like you stated, it did just that.Tax payers subsidized those who opted to get cars at an exorbitant price. True, people did go to the show rooms. True, car manufacturers did cut their inventory. Unfortunately, the stream of customers tailed off after the program closed. The government had a horrid design for information flow and underestimated the number of people needed to process the claims. What did they do? The dealers have to front the money and wait far too long to get their money. You can nit pick all you want, CFC certainly had it's problems but it worked. It brought tight fisted consumers into car dealers and they spent money. Sorry Annie, it worked. It only took future sales and transferred them to the present, and inefficiently at that. There has been several studies to substantiate that. No stimulus is designed to stimulate the economy with the goal of long-term growth. This only took the potential for future growth and applied it to the present. And again, at a very inefficient and costly price. Some seem to fall for any gimmick that comes along. That’s the problem Keynesian economics. Treat the symptoms and not the cause. Please explain how this treats the cause? I didn’t say his philosophy treated the cause, but rather the symptoms. The symptom is the recession, and as you has fully demonstrated here with your “fiscal stimulus is designed to make consumers NOW…,” does nothing to address long term growth. If a program boosts short-term sales, but we’re back in the same malaise in the near future, then what was the point? |
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bill callahan
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Joined: 21 April 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 10237 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 3:47pm |
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but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy.
Edited by bill callahan - 26 July 2010 at 3:49pm |
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Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself...
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 3:49pm |
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Originally posted by Annie Really?.....Darn, I remember several articles stating that GM and Ford were calling back workers who had been layed off due to the fact that inventories fell due to CFC.......Don't you remember that Annie? One article I just googled said 1350 GM workers were called back to work due to the success of the CFC program. "And the purpose of stimulus is, first and foremost, to mitigate unemployment." Paul Krugman (a Keynesian economist) One shot, short term programs like cash for clunkers do nothing toward this goal. And, if one thinks of the stimulus as priming the pump............... Cash for clunkers is an example of a major failure. The pump was not successfully primed. Edited by dockbumper5 - 26 July 2010 at 3:52pm |
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 3:55pm |
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Originally posted by bill callahan Isn't it also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Edited by dockbumper5 - 26 July 2010 at 3:58pm |
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bill callahan
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Joined: 21 April 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 10237 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:01pm |
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Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan Isn't also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery.but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. i am saying the bottom should have occured sooner and thus rebounded sooner. tax credits kicked the can down the road. the bottom may have been May'10 but should have been much earlier.
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Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself...
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:06pm |
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Originally posted by bill callahan
Originally posted by dockbumper5 I certainly wished the bottom would have occured sooner. I don't like to see hard working people(home builders, carpenters, etc)struggle......Let's hope our economy continues to improve.
Originally posted by bill callahan
but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Isn't also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. i am saying the bottom should have occured sooner and thus rebounded sooner. tax credits kicked the can down the road. the bottom may have been May'10 but should have been much earlier. |
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boomerjake
Big League 
Joined: 22 April 2009 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4345 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:06pm |
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Originally posted by dockbumper5 Originally posted by boomerjake
Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake ???Again, I don't know what you are attempting to do or say......You state Keynes doesn't attempt to treat the cause. I never said he did......that was you who said it.......I then ask you on your ideas of Keynes treating the cause, and you offer up this post(that really didn't answer anything)..........You ask what is the point in boosting short term sales? It is pretty simple(if you knew anything about Keynes), the health of the economy will rise and fall. Boosting short term spending by the consumer, will/might lead us to another rise in the economy. Pretty simple.Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake I said nothing about treating the cause, you did. Here is what I know about Keynes and some of his views. He believed the health of an economy will rise and fall. In the good times, govts should save money. In the bad times, govts should use fiscal stimulus with the money they saved during the good times........Tell me what you know about Keynes and his ideas on "treating the cause" as you put it???Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake Looks like you don't understand Keynes.....Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake Fiscal stimulus in a recession has no long term goal. It is very much designed to make consumers spend money immediately.Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by Annie Stimulus is designed to make consumers NOW....Like you stated, it did just that.Tax payers subsidized those who opted to get cars at an exorbitant price. True, people did go to the show rooms. True, car manufacturers did cut their inventory. Unfortunately, the stream of customers tailed off after the program closed. The government had a horrid design for information flow and underestimated the number of people needed to process the claims. What did they do? The dealers have to front the money and wait far too long to get their money. You can nit pick all you want, CFC certainly had it's problems but it worked. It brought tight fisted consumers into car dealers and they spent money. Sorry Annie, it worked. It only took future sales and transferred them to the present, and inefficiently at that. There has been several studies to substantiate that. No stimulus is designed to stimulate the economy with the goal of long-term growth. This only took the potential for future growth and applied it to the present. And again, at a very inefficient and costly price. Some seem to fall for any gimmick that comes along. That’s the problem Keynesian economics. Treat the symptoms and not the cause. Please explain how this treats the cause? I didn’t say his philosophy treated the cause, but rather the symptoms. The symptom is the recession, and as you has fully demonstrated here with your “fiscal stimulus is designed to make consumers NOW…,” does nothing to address long term growth. If a program boosts short-term sales, but we’re back in the same malaise in the near future, then what was the point? I know quite a bit about Keynes, as I’ve made it a point to know. You’re the supposed expert and yet you cannot explain how his policies address long-term growth. You know why? Because they don’t! They’re only an exhibition in government waste and inefficiency. Unfortunately for you we have history as a guide. That guide shows what you supported has failed. It did not “lead us to another rise in the economy.” If we only accomplished what you describe as short-term sales then what is the point? Shouldn’t the goal be long-term growth? If we’re basically in the same position prior to CFC, then what was the point? Wasn’t it a waste? It didn’t achieve this rise you speak of right? |
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Annie
Ultimate
Joined: 02 May 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 17583 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:08pm |
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Originally posted by dockbumper5 Originally posted by Annie Really?.....Darn, I remember several articles stating that GM and Ford were calling back workers who had been layed off due to the fact that inventories fell due to CFC.......Don't you remember that Annie? "And the purpose of stimulus is, first and foremost, to mitigate unemployment." Paul Krugman (a Keynesian economist) One shot, short term programs like cash for clunkers do nothing toward this goal. And, if one thinks of the stimulus as priming the pump............... Cash for clunkers is an example of a major failure. The pump was not successfully primed. I never said there was not a short term bump for some people --- but at what price? The number of people called back were but a pittance relative to those laid off. You continue to one to look at only the few positives of the program and none of the negatives. Dock's Economic Theory requires a special lens in the glasses -- otherwise astigmatism blurs the view. |
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“If you don’t know where you are going, any road will get you there.”
― Lewis Carroll |
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boomerjake
Big League
Joined: 22 April 2009 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4345 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:09pm |
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Originally posted by dockbumper5 Originally posted by bill callahan
Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan I certainly wished the bottom would have occured sooner. I don't like to see hard working people(home builders, carpenters, etc)struggle......Let's hope our economy continues to improve.but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Isn't also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. i am saying the bottom should have occured sooner and thus rebounded sooner. tax credits kicked the can down the road. the bottom may have been May'10 but should have been much earlier. It seems the only strategy you and Keynes have is spend a lot of the public’s money and hope like hell something good long-term happens. |
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boomerjake
Big League
Joined: 22 April 2009 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4345 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:11pm |
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Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan Isn't it also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery.but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. You and Biden may be the only people in the country that think this is the "Recovery Summer."
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:12pm |
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Well jake, if you know quite a bit about Keynes, you hide it well. I am not an expert on anything except truck driving and horse racing............... Fiscal stimulus should only be used during down economic times, so long term goals really aren't the focus. Getting the economy rolling again is the focus......Of course we aren't in the same point prior to the CFC, don't you keep up with auto sales??? |
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:14pm |
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Originally posted by boomerjake
Originally posted by dockbumper5 I guess you missed the words, "If so"........Yes, poor me. I hope the country and economy continue to improve.
Originally posted by bill callahan
but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Isn't it also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. You and Biden may be the only people in the country that think this is the "Recovery Summer." |
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boomerjake
Big League
Joined: 22 April 2009 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4345 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:22pm |
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Originally posted by dockbumper5 Originally posted by boomerjake
Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan I guess you missed the words, "If so"........Yes, poor me. I hope the country and economy continue to improve.but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Isn't it also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. You and Biden may be the only people in the country that think this is the "Recovery Summer." And no one else but you does huh? And how exactly does any of these wonderful programs directly relate to improvement in the economy? That's your contention, that we wouldn't have improved without them? Edited by boomerjake - 26 July 2010 at 4:23pm |
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:24pm |
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Originally posted by Annie The price was less than $3 billion. Alot of money, but not even close to the billions given to GM and Chrysler. And one can argue CFC did much more to help the auto industry than the govt "loans"......I will bet you those workers called back to work would disagree on CFC.......Look Annie, you found a quote, tied into the CFC program as if CFC didn't actually help unemployment numbers. As I pointed out, that was not true. 1350 GM workers back at work is not a pittance at all. If I only look at the postives of the program, at least we have you on the board to only look at the negatives...... Originally posted by dockbumper5 Originally posted by Annie Really?.....Darn, I remember several articles stating that GM and Ford were calling back workers who had been layed off due to the fact that inventories fell due to CFC.......Don't you remember that Annie? 1350 laid off GM workers were called back to work due to the success of CFC "And the purpose of stimulus is, first and foremost, to mitigate unemployment." Paul Krugman (a Keynesian economist) One shot, short term programs like cash for clunkers do nothing toward this goal. And, if one thinks of the stimulus as priming the pump............... Cash for clunkers is an example of a major failure. The pump was not successfully primed. I never said there was not a short term bump for some people --- but at what price? The number of people called back were but a pittance relative to those laid off. You continue to one to look at only the few positives of the program and none of the negatives. Dock's Economic Theory requires a special lens in the glasses -- otherwise astigmatism blurs the view. Edited by dockbumper5 - 26 July 2010 at 4:39pm |
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:28pm |
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Originally posted by boomerjake Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake What wonderful programs are you talking about?? I have only endorsed CFC and TARP. I have posted many times on the benefits of both. I don't know what would have happened without TARP, do you? Like I said earlier, I am not an expert.
Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan I guess you missed the words, "If so"........Yes, poor me. I hope the country and economy continue to improve.but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Isn't it also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. You and Biden may be the only people in the country that think this is the "Recovery Summer." And no one else but you does huh? And how exactly does any of these wonderful programs directly relate to improvement in the economy? That's your contention, that we wouldn't have improved without them? |
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boomerjake
Big League
Joined: 22 April 2009 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4345 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:30pm |
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Originally posted by dockbumper5 Originally posted by boomerjake
Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by boomerjake What wonderful programs are you talking about?? I have only endorsed CFC and TARP. I have posted many times on the benefits of both. I don't know what would have happened without TARP, do you? Like I said earlier, I am not an expert.Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan I guess you missed the words, "If so"........Yes, poor me. I hope the country and economy continue to improve.but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Isn't it also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. You and Biden may be the only people in the country that think this is the "Recovery Summer." And no one else but you does huh? And how exactly does any of these wonderful programs directly relate to improvement in the economy? That's your contention, that we wouldn't have improved without them? You only act like one because you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express! |
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:30pm |
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Originally posted by boomerjake Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan I thought you said you knew much about Keynes??? You keep tying him into stuff that doesn't make sense......Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan I certainly wished the bottom would have occured sooner. I don't like to see hard working people(home builders, carpenters, etc)struggle......Let's hope our economy continues to improve.but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Isn't also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. i am saying the bottom should have occured sooner and thus rebounded sooner. tax credits kicked the can down the road. the bottom may have been May'10 but should have been much earlier. It seems the only strategy you and Keynes have is spend a lot of the public’s money and hope like hell something good long-term happens. 
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boomerjake
Big League
Joined: 22 April 2009 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4345 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:32pm |
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Originally posted by dockbumper5 Originally posted by boomerjake
Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan I thought you said you knew much about Keynes??? You keep tying him into stuff that doesn't make sense......Originally posted by dockbumper5
Originally posted by bill callahan I certainly wished the bottom would have occured sooner. I don't like to see hard working people(home builders, carpenters, etc)struggle......Let's hope our economy continues to improve.but the housing bubble/bust has to happen in order for the market to correct itself...passing tax credits only delays the inevitable. in a capital economy things have to bottom out before they get better. kick the can down road is not a good strategy. Isn't also invevitable that the housing market will rebound? What if we now are at the bottom? If so, that kicking the can down the road wasn't such a bad thing after all......It got us past the bottom and on the road to recovery. i am saying the bottom should have occured sooner and thus rebounded sooner. tax credits kicked the can down the road. the bottom may have been May'10 but should have been much earlier. It seems the only strategy you and Keynes have is spend a lot of the public’s money and hope like hell something good long-term happens. I’m stilling waiting on you tying him to something that does? |
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dockbumper5
Big Daddy
Joined: 06 January 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2592 |
Posted: 26 July 2010 at 4:36pm |
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Just read my posts. I explained some of Keynes and his beliefs. |
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